Opinions ___________________________________________
The IPCC - on the run at last
Tuesday, 22 April 2008
By Bob Carter
globalcooling.jpg
Is global cooling next? Average lower atmosphere global
temperature differences (degrees C) from 1979 - 1998

Data courtesy of Professors John Christy and Roy Spencer,
University of Alabama, Huntsville; a best-fitted spline curve
represents longer term temperature trends.

A soprano thrillingly hits her top-A, sighs with relief at achieving the desired effect, and moves on. But not the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) whose climate alarmism started to crescendo in 2001 in the Third Assessment Report (3AR) with the statement that “most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely (>66 per cent probable) to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations”.

Recently, in their Fourth Assessment Report (4AR), and faced with their failure to convince the public that the sky is falling, the IPCC delivers even more preposterous advice in ever shriller tones, saying that “Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely (>90 per cent probable) due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations”. The wobble around top-A is clearly discernible.

The press, most of whom have firmly identified with the alarmist cause, continues to appease the Green gods by faithfully running IPCC’s now unrealistic scientific propaganda, thereby stoking public alarm; the science is a done deal, they say, and the time has come to stop talking. According to UK journalist, Geoffrey Lean, all that is lacking to solve the global warming “crisis” is political will from governments.

Well, thank the Lord for that lack. For the IPCC’s 2007 final Summary for Policymakers shows that the climate alarmists are at last on the run. Their evidence for dangerous, human-caused global warming, always slim, now lies exposed in tatters for all to see.

In contrast, the alternative, persuasive and non-alarmist view of climate change is well summarised in two recently issued and readily available documents. The first is a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations, which was released at the UN’s Bali conference last December, supported by the signatures of 103 eminent professional persons. The second is the Manhattan Declaration on Climate Change, the release of which coincided with the launch of the International Climate Science Coalition at a major climate rationalist conference in New York in early March.

The evidence for dangerous global warming adduced by the IPCC has never been strong on empirical science. Endless circumstantial scare campaigns have been run about melting glaciers, more droughts and storms and floods, sea-level rise and polar bears, but all founder on one inescapable problem - as does Mr Al Gore’s over-hyped science fiction film. And that is that we live on a naturally variable planet. Change is what planet Earth does on all scales, and so far not one of the alleged effects of human-caused global warming has been shown to lie outside normal planetary variation. Sea-level rising? Sure, it happens. And the appropriate response is adaptation, as the Dutch have known for centuries.

Stuck with the absence of empirical evidence for dangerous warming or abnormal change, in 2001 the IPCC turned to graphmanship, giving prominence in its 3AR to the so-called “hockey-stick” record of temperature over the last 1,000 years. The hockey-stick graphic, which appeared to show dramatic increases of temperature during the 20th century compared with earlier times, has now been exposed as statistical chicanery and, thankfully, is nowhere to be seen in the 4AR.

No hockey-stick and no empirical evidence, what is a man to do? Well, obviously, turn to virtual reality rather than real reality: PlayStation 4 here we come.

The IPCC’s expensive and complex computer models can be programmed to produce any desired result, and it is therefore not surprising that they uniformly predict warming since 1990. Meanwhile, the real-world global average temperature has stubbornly refused to obey this stricture. It exhibits no significant increase since 1998, and the preliminary 2007 year-end temperature confirms the continuation of a temperature plateau since 1998 to which is now appended a cooling trend over the last three years.

Is global cooling next?

That there is a mismatch between model prediction and 2007 climate reality is again unsurprising. For as IPCC senior scientist Kevin Trenberth noted recently: “... there are no (climate) predictions by IPCC at all. And there never have been”. Instead there are only “what if” projections of future climate that correspond to certain emissions scenarios. Trenberth continues, “None of the models used by IPCC is initialised to the observed state and none of the climate states in the models corresponds even remotely to the current observed climate”.

Knowing that their models are non-predictive and that despite their exhortations world temperature isn’t currently increasing, the IPCC has the effrontery to argue in 4AR that a decline in the sun’s activity and increased eruptions from volcanoes would “likely have produced cooling” of the planet were it not for offsetting human-caused warming. And this when there have been no recent volcanic eruptions of global import, and after 15 years during which the warming alarmists have consistently denied that solar activity is a significant cause of recent climate change.

The self-serving nature of these arguments is breathtaking, and transparently the alarmists are now positioning themselves to explain away any continuation of the downturn in temperature that is now underway short-term.

Such stunts deny scientific method, because they fly in the face of Occam’s Razor, or the principle of parsimony. Of course volcanic dust or other aerosols might have affected the global temperature over the last few years. But only persons who are searching desperately to save a favourite hypothesis make such assertions in the absence of reliable evidence.

To avoid acknowledging the recent flat-lining of global temperature, IPCC alarmists have another favourite pea and thimble - or is it elephant and circus tent - trick, which is to assert some variation on the statement that “eleven of the last twelve years (1995-2006) rank among the twelve warmest years in the instrumental record”. Given the cyclicity of the climate record, and that the planet is probably now poised near the peak of an ascending temperature cycle, this statement is no more useful than observing that over an annual cycle the hottest days each year cluster around midsummer’s day.

Having failed to convince the world that human-caused warming of the atmosphere is dangerous, IPCC has been casting around for new causes to espouse. A Royal Society of London report in 2005 on “Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide” has proved to be good feedstock, because of its claim that the average pH of the oceans will fall by 0.5 units by 2100 if global emissions keep rising at their current rate. That this estimate is known to be exaggerated by a factor of about 3 has not prevented the IPCC and others from recently publicising the ocean acidification legend. Clearly, they now seek to move the epicentre of the climate scare from the atmosphere, which stubbornly refuses to warm, to the ocean, whose depths doubtless still contain many scientific surprises.

The roughly 50 computer experts and scientists who form the core advisory group for the IPCC’s stance must have realised for several years now that the game was up. There is indeed copious evidence that climate is changing, as it always has; and that natural biological and physico-chemical systems - again as always - are changing in response. But as to human causation - the evidential cupboard is bare.

For the last three years, satellite-measured average global temperature has been declining. Given the occurrence also of record low winter temperatures and massive snowfalls across both hemispheres this year, IPCC members have now entered panic mode, the whites of their eyes being clearly visible as they seek to defend their now unsustainable hypothesis of dangerous, human-caused global warming.

To try to top The Ring of the Niebelung, composers after Wagner abandoned classical key structures and turned to the apparent aural chaos of atonalism. Similarly, to pursue the higher cause of saving the planet, the IPCC has now largely abandoned classical (empirical) science and adopted the sophistry of deterministic computer modelling. The result is neither melodious nor meaningful, let alone useful for sensible environmental planning. The time has surely arrived for sovereign governments to commission an independent reassessment of the UN’s hysterical global warming scare.

First published in Canada Free Press on March 25, 2008

Professor Bob Carter is a researcher at the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University. Copies of scientific papers and other media articles by Bob Carter can be accessed through his website.


An opinion provided by OnlineOpinion.com.au - Australia's e-journal of social and political debate.
Comments
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posted by: jep 22-Apr-08 19:28:05
I'm sure man has some impact upon the climate and I'm sure it's much less than the IPCC posits. Natural variability is probably responsible for 75% or more of the observed warming.

We need to fund both sides of the climate change issue. We also need open, scientific debate. The worst thing we can do is implement expense remedies that may have no effect whatsoever on the environment.
posted by: Liese Coulter 22-Apr-08 22:06:58
I wonder what wild hair has affected ScienceAlert to give even minimal credence to this attack disguised as an argument by publishing it?
posted by: Sam Stainsby 23-Apr-08 00:24:42
Some information that this article neglected to mention:

"Carter is a member of the conservative think tank the Institute of Public Affairs" [Wikipedia entry for "Robert M. Carter"] and "[The IPA] is funded by its membership and also by corporate interest groups including Murray Irrigation Limited, Visyboard, Telstra, Western Mining, BHP Billiton and the tobacco industry (and also Gunns Limited and Monsanto)." [Wikipedia entry for "This Institute of Public Affairs"].

Personally I think calling something their group "The Institute of Public Affairs" is deliberately misleading - "The Institute of Conservative and Corporate Interests" might be more accurate.
posted by: Dan from Victoria 23-Apr-08 01:36:56
It's always interesting to note that the GW followers go first to character assassination, rather than deal with the facts. This is what the Nazis did to all their enemies.

In Victoria BC, we've just had record cold and snow for April. This would not be happening if there was global warming. Another point of evidence, in a long line, that GW is just another taxation scheme to separate us from our money
posted by: Sam Stainsby 23-Apr-08 02:00:03
"In Victoria BC, we've just had record cold and snow for April. This would not be happening if there was global warming."

Climate change is far more complex than that. There is this branch of mathematics called "statistics" that you might want to read up on. Aside from that, climate change doesn't necessarily dictate that temperatures go up at every point on the globe. In fact several theories point to temperatures going down in some parts, and rainfall increasing in others.

"It's always interesting to note that the GW followers go first to character assassination, rather than deal with the facts. This is what the Nazis did to all their enemies."

I leave the "facts" to the consensus of the vast majority of independent climate change experts around the world (my original area of research was theoretical particle physics) and accept their arguments. Ethical authors should declare their vested interests - I was helping this particular author out as they seem to have forgotten to do so. People have a right to know. What conclusions they draw is entirely up to them. As for comparing me to Nazis, well that is just another form of ad hominem argument.
posted by: macadamia_man@email.com 23-Apr-08 02:34:11
How remarkably degrading this article is to author, publisher and reader alike. It is neither internally consistent nor logically convincing, and makes unsupported assertions (as fact) about the IPCC's agenda, composition, motivation and opinions that are not only unverified by their words and actions but appear characterised by some form of personal antipathy. Reminds me of the Big Tobacco pr campaigns of the last thirty years intended to forestall the inevitable as long and as profitably as possible. Can this be one last dip in the nosebag before it is drained dry? I hope so . . .
posted by: Zytheran 23-Apr-08 03:14:53
Jeez Bob, when are you going to give up on the straw man arguments?
"And that is that we live on a naturally variable planet. Change is what planet Earth does on all scales, and so far not one of the alleged effects of human-caused global warming has been shown to lie outside normal planetary variation."

The above sentence, a perfect example of the straw man fallacy, really doesn't add any weight to your arguments. No-one is arguing that the current climate changes are outside of "planetary variation".

However before we even reach this point we have a graph that stops at 1998. Man, this is soooo old hat, can't you learn a new trick, or at least pay attention when this tactic is criticized and stop doing it. And the data is from Prof. John Christy, this is the same person whose wrong data and wrong conclusions were shown for what they are in the journal Science in 2005.
Other fallacy gems like "In contrast, the alternative, persuasive and non-alarmist view of climate change.." ,an example of appeal to reasonableness, should really be left out of any discourse you hope to win. We don't want "view", we want facts and evidence.
Even your analogies are poor, "this statement is no more useful than observing that over an annual cycle the hottest days each year cluster around midsummer’s day." If you looked at temperature data from the BOM you would actually know that they don't.
Bob, it's all just pretty lazy writing, how about adding some meat to your argument? Some real references?I think we are all getting a bit sick of your so-far baseless hypothesis, cherry picking of data and rants.
posted by: Raven 23-Apr-08 03:59:38
Sam Stainsby says,
"Ethical authors should declare their vested interests - I was helping this particular author out as they seem to have forgotten to do so."

Your appeal to ethics would be very noble if it was not totally hypocritical. The IPCC itself is a UN body that has a vested interest in preserving itself and ensuring that the power of the UN expands. Do you demand that all members of the IPCC committees declare their conflict of interest?

Al Gore and other alarmists hope to make billions peddling 'green' technologies and through carbon trading. I did not see any declaration of conflict of interest in Al's film. I suspect that you conveniently ignored that conflict.

Even worse, you have the bias within the entire scientific establish which depends on government grants. Getting grants requires that papers be published. Getting papers published requires peer review. Getting past peer review requires scientists to conform to the 'consensus' unless they have some revolutionary idea backed up by irrefutable facts. This means the system puts a lot of pressure on scientists to stick with the 'consensus' position since most science is incremental rather than revolutionary.

Despite all of those obvious conflict of interests on the alarmist side, skeptics focus on the science and only mention the conflicts in passing. OTOH, many alarmists start by screaming about the possible conflicts and use that as an excuse to ignore the science.
posted by: Mr Gumby 23-Apr-08 04:39:20
In my view it is ridiculous to talk of observations plateauing in the last few years, based on the fitting of a spline curve. Look at the graph – if the next few observations happen to kick up, the plateau would disappear, the alleged plateauing is entirely dependent on the last couple of observations. With noise in the system, that’s really a bit silly. The deterministic modelling that is disparaged does take variations in solar radiation into account; the modellers aren’t ignoring changes in solar activity. Deterministic models may not be very useful in Carter's field of geology, but they are used in many other areas of science, and constitute much of the large advance in Science made since Newton and Leibniz came up with calculus, and I don’t think they can be dismissed so lightly.

Until the last lot of IPCC modelling, there may have been “fudge factors” involved, where atmospheric systems and ocean systems interacted, required to keep models stable over long periods - however, in the most recent models, these factors are gone, everything is now driven by what is known about atmospheric physics. If the conclusions of the modelling are wrong, then everything we know about atmospheric physics has to be thrown out.

Modellers are actually pretty modest about what they have achieved, they know the shortcomings of the models, they are aware of the comparative lack of observations in the Southern Hemisphere, and how long various cycles in the weather can be compared with the time scale of available observations, and so on. But all the same, it is quite an achievement to have a set of equations involving physical parameters which when solved over a period of 200 years give solutions close to what we actually observe. These models are predictive, and have been run into the future. They have been successful at predicting regional changes in climate as well.

However, that said, nothing is certain, so perhaps we should rely on the precautionary principle!

So while the article under-estimates what is behind all the modelling, I don’t mind such views being published. I also don't mind views stating that the skeptics (or deniers - for if advocates can be called alarmists, surely skeptics can be called this) are the only holders of verifiable science, that the IPCC is a UN plot driven by self interest, that to be a critic of the claims and motives of skeptic is akin to being a Nazi, and that the same methods being complained about are used to do the complaining, as this tells me much about the writer and what they are saying and how much legitimacy I should give to their statements.
posted by: Raven 23-Apr-08 04:57:21
Mr Gumby says:
"In my view it is ridiculous to talk of observations plateauing in the last few years, based on the fitting of a spline curve. Look at the graph – if the next few observations happen to kick up, the plateau would disappear, the alleged plateauing is entirely dependent on the last couple of observations."

No it is not. The last 7 years of data is enough to demonstrate statistically that the IPCC 4AR projections are 95% likely to be false. It will take quite a surge in warming over the next few years to get back to where the temps are supposed to be according to the IPCC models.

The detailed analysis is here: http://rankexploits.com/musings/2008/ipcc-projections-continue-to-falsify/
posted by: Sam Stainsby 23-Apr-08 06:21:59
"Raven" wrote: "Your appeal to ethics would be very noble if it was not totally hypocritical. The IPCC itself is a UN body ..."

I didn't actually mention the IPCC - I said "independent climate change experts" (I actually meant to write "climate experts" but there ya go). But whatever the case, hypocrisy doesn't not make an argument false: see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_Quoque
posted by: Sam Stainsby 23-Apr-08 06:23:18
(apologies for the double negative. I should have written "But whatever the case, hypocrisy doesn't make an argument false".)
posted by: Mr Gumby 23-Apr-08 06:32:26
Thanks Raven.
I think my view would be that the opinion/analysis of one person, in this case Lucia Liljegren (who's blog you cite) are a contribution and not an end point to the ongoing discussion.
Cheers
posted by: Raven 23-Apr-08 06:48:11
Sam Stainsby says:
"I said "independent climate change experts" (I actually meant to write "climate experts" but there ya go). But whatever the case, hypocrisy doesn't not make an argument false"

No. But hypocrisy does demonstrate that your argument is really an ad hominum attack designed to avoid addressing the facts presented.

Furthermore, the government grant system and the peer review process ensure that there is no such thing as an *independent* climate expert. Most scientists working in the field recognize pretty quickly that sticking with the party line will allow them to get more papers published with fewer hassles.
posted by: Raven 23-Apr-08 07:01:05
Mr Gumby
"I think my view would be that the opinion/analysis of one person, in this case Lucia Liljegren (who's blog you cite) are a contribution and not an end point to the ongoing discussion."

Of course. But her analysis is compelling enough to demonstrate that we should be having a discussion about whether the science used to produce IPCC predictions is reliable enough to justify massive public policy changes.
posted by: Peter Ravenscroft 23-Apr-08 09:01:00
If you miss something in sciece, models don't work. It is very likely that magnetic flux shifts at the core-mantle boundary and derivative changes at the surface are closely limked to, if not driving, surface temperature changes. The maps match, in part, see http://www.freewebs.com/psravenscroft for preliminary details, if interested. The key geomagnetic work was done by Jeremy Bloxham, now Dean of Physical Sciences at Harvard, and published in 1995.
posted by: Sam Stainsby 23-Apr-08 13:37:28
Raven wrote: "Most scientists working in the field recognize pretty quickly that sticking with the party line will allow them to get more papers published with fewer hassles."

And yet until very recently, the government was one of climate change denial and pro coal (and still is the latter), and government funding is vital to universities. Please explain how this backs up your argument.

Raven wrote: "But hypocrisy does demonstrate that your argument is really an ad hominum attack designed to avoid addressing the facts presented."

Hypocrisy of the arguer has absolutely no bearing on whether an argument is ad hominem or not. An ad hominem argument is a type of logical fallacy. You yourself attack academics saying that their papers are influenced by following the party line - are you discounting your own argument against academics? Now accusing someone of hypocrisy in an attempt to defeat their argument - that *is* an classic ad hominem. You seems to have gotten that back-to-front.

I'll say this one more only: I have addressed the "facts" presented by saying that I have chosen to delegate my trust to the consensus of the vast majority of climate experts, and that I strongly suspect representatives from the IPA to be influenced by vested interests, and hence dismiss their arguments after a cursory examination. I am not, and will probably never be a climate expert, and nor will you I suspect. I'm not interested in conspiracy theories that almost every scientist in the climate science community is trying to pull the wool over our eyes to keep bread on their table. I actually have some faith that quite a few are honest researchers, probavly a large majority. If science if so corrupt, then by all rights we should reject just about everything that is coming out of the scientific community. It is these convoluted conspiracy theories that defy occams razor, not climate change theories.
posted by: Francis Manns 23-Apr-08 14:28:34
Sam Stainsby said at the top of the comments: " Some information that this article neglected to mention:

"Carter is a member of the conservative think tank the Institute of Public Affairs" [Wikipedia entry for "Robert M. Carter"] and "[The IPA] is funded by its membership and also by corporate interest groups including Murray Irrigation Limited, Visyboard, Telstra, Western Mining, BHP Billiton and the tobacco industry (and also Gunns Limited and Monsanto)." [Wikipedia entry for "This Institute of Public Affairs"].

Personally I think calling something their group "The Institute of Public Affairs" is deliberately misleading - "The Institute of Conservative and Corporate Interests" might be more accurate.

Dear Sam S. If you've ever had a logic course and were able to integrate the lessons you would know that your personal attack on Dr. Robert Carter is known as Argumentum ad Hominem. His affiliations have no logical connections to his scientific integrity. If they did you yourself would be wise to join or support similar organisations. Conservative simply means cautious in connotation you would not understand. Apparently you would rather rush into the end of the most widespread global prosperity without the guidance of science. Irrigations is apparently evil, mining is obviously evil, Chemistry is also an unmitigated evil in your world. It behoves you to look around you at your bicycle, car, dwelling and clothing and realize that without all the material in your life you probably would not even have a loincloth to your name. Realize that the left is a parasite on the body of the poor and thjose on fixed income and knowledgeable people ignore the intellectuals like you who have very biased and incomplete experience with the real status of economics and/or the environment of the planet.
This is the most prosperous period of life on the planet and without prosperity, the environment cannot be protected and conserved.
posted by: Francis Manns 23-Apr-08 15:27:27
Modellers must be humble. A model is a qualitative truth table as well as a quantitative test of hypotheses. True and true equals true; true and false is false. A modeller must use all the steps in a process, and the environment is far too complex for modelling, for the modeller can never know all the steps in a natural process. Our time lines are too short. A stray false discovered in the process requires that the scientist to turn on a dime and change his previous conclusions. That is a rare instance indeed because of the grant system. However, it has just happened in hurricane research, to our great relief. Panenthetically, I watched a hurricane become a poster storm for the left when it traversed the hot water of the Caribbean missing Cuba and Venezuela, crossed the Gulf of Mexico and hit New Orleans head on as category five and the people of New Orleans took a political stance by not evacuating despite numerous warnings. If Barack Obama, not George Bush had warned New Orleans, would the death and destruction been less? I do not know, my hypothesis is that the poster storm became a political football and the science was strong and the human will was immature. Climate science has become politicised, but science will be served slowly but surely by conservative steps.
posted by: lee rodgers 23-Apr-08 16:28:16
Carter's foundation's funding from ostensibly "denialist" firms is a non-starter, strictly a straw-man tactic. There are many conservationist and environmentalist org's that receive money from oil & coal companies. Carter's pedigree is not in dispute, however, he is renown for his work in paleoclimate research.

As for the data, well, perhaps people should judge for themselves:

http://i30.tinypic.com/34pzzuc.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/20t2b2o.jpg

(one of these is not like the other)



posted by: Sam Stainsby 24-Apr-08 00:29:43
Francis Manns wrote: "His affiliations have no logical connections to his scientific integrity."

The vast majority of people rightly do not hold that point of view. If you find any stats to the contrary, let me know.

"Apparently you would rather rush into the end of the most widespread global prosperity without the guidance of science."

I'm not going to repeat myself a third time about which scientists I trust and which I don't. Sufficient to say I trust in scientific consensus. I'm a PhD qualified particle physicist by background, and a great enthusiast for technology and science (properly applied). The rest of your argument is therefore the senseless result of your thoughtless assumptions and your inability to follow the debate.

"biased and incomplete experience with the real status of economics and/or the environment of the planet"

I'm a managing director of an IT company, I grew up on a farm and I live in the bush. Don't look now, your assumptions are showing.

"Conservative simply means cautious in connotation you would not understand."

Is that your convenient attempt at redefining a well-known term. The primary meaning in this context is: "A person who favors maintenance of the status quo or reversion to some earlier status." Look it up.
posted by: Mr Gumby 24-Apr-08 01:30:26
Raven says "But her analysis is compelling enough to demonstrate that we should be having a discussion about whether the science used to produce IPCC predictions is reliable enough to justify massive public policy changes."

Actually Raven, I actually don't think it is as compelling as you seem to think it is. As I said, it is all part of the mix, though that is all it is.

I can understand though how such web blogs with such a simple message (I make no comment on the analysis as I have no idea what the analysist used in her spreadsheet - though maybe someone would care to comment on the veracity of 7 years worth of data being used to predict future climate) can be compelling and indeed lead people to come up with various theories to explain why world governments don't just "get them".

PS This is a complex issue - both scientifically and politically and I don't think we can talk in the absolutes terms. For example, in this one series of comments in response to Carter's writing we have people commenting that someone shouldn't point out Carters linking to a right-wing think tank and others pointing out the links of the IPCC to the UN and Government Grants (which, as an aside, I don't actually see as inherently bad as I am not one to hold anti UN or anti-government views).

posted by: Patrick 25-Apr-08 22:43:32
"No-one is arguing that the current climate changes are outside of "planetary variation". "

Huh? That is exactly what IPCC and Al Gore have claimed. Even further, they have claimed that most-to-all of the warming is due to AGW, with high probability. We have Mann, based on the flawed hockey stick, claiming that recent temperatures are highest in 1000 years (range of data error doesnt support that). None are provable statements, neither are supported by the data, but they are out there.

I agree with the view that climate is complex. Such complexity and the reality of the complex and ongoing natural variability in climate has been a pillar in the 'skeptics' case: Because we have so many variables, it is impossible to justly claim that we *know* previous warming is due to man. Until we have fully and accurately accounted for all sources of natural variability, such statements are hubristic speculation.

"However before we even reach this point we have a graph that stops at 1998." While alarmists find it convenient to stop at that high note of 1998, Carter's chart goes to 2008 (today). It is merely mislabelled.
It does show that 1998 was hotter than any year since, and as such is a PROOF POINT to disprove the phony claim that warming is due to man. It cannot be, since CO2 has risen while temperatures fell. Conclusion: Natural variability exists and is large enough to outweigh AGW over a decade-long period.


posted by: Patrick 25-Apr-08 22:54:51
Sam: "I'm a PhD qualified particle physicist by background"
So am I a PhD, and I am shocked and saddened that you use Ad Hominem attacks against the author. If his facts, conclusions, or views are wrong, debate those. Your attack on his associations is akin to the Maoists in the Cultural Revolution, trying to label him a 'counter-revolutionary' whose views cannot be listened to. That is the way of dissent-suppression, not open debate; political guilt-by-association and not fact-based dialog. Shame on you. Get out of the gutter and talk about what is right and what is wrong about what he says.

- Does lack of temperature rise since 1998 deal a setback to IPCC models? Yes or no? It's a good question. Maybe Carter is wrong.
- Is the acid ocean thesis another exaggeration or for real?
etc.
posted by: Patrick 26-Apr-08 06:26:19
"And yet until very recently, the government was one of climate change denial and pro coal (and still is the latter), and government funding is vital to universities. "

Nonsense. Hansen and GISS has been at it since the 1980s, govt funded the whole time. Govt has funding pro-AGW science consistently.
posted by: Zytheran 28-Apr-08 01:01:53
Patrick:"It is merely mislabeled."
I'm not sure who mislabeled the graph, you can only hope it wasn't Carter or Christy. That's pretty slack.

Patrck:"It does show that 1998 was hotter than any year since,..."
OK, a fact
Patrick:".. and as such is a PROOF POINT to disprove the phony claim that warming is due to man. It cannot be, since CO2 has risen while temperatures fell. Conclusion: Natural variability exists and is large enough to outweigh AGW over a decade-long period."
Your conclusion applies to a time span of 10 years whereas your prior statement about warming applies to over 200 years. Furthermore you are mixing long term means and shorter term variance.
No one is denying that natural variability exists and I think most people agree than the signal from the variation is greater than the expected yearly change through long term AGW which is very small.
For your conclusion to be accurate you need to show that long term average temperature is independent of man and citing any short term variation does not do this.
posted by: Sam Stainsby 28-Apr-08 13:20:42
Patrick (won't write his full name) wrote:

"So am I a PhD, and I am shocked and saddened that you use Ad Hominem attacks against the author. If his facts, conclusions, or views are wrong, debate those."

Sure you are - I'll believe that when you put your full name. Go back and read my argument again instead of parroting the ad hominem thing - and then perhaps you'll understand. and maybe you'll have something new to add that hasn't already been said. For those of us who are not climate change experts, even scientists, its a matter of trust and recognition of authority of knowledge. Without it, science cannot function since it relies on the work of countless scientists in different interrelated disciplines. I don't trust those who work for fossil fuel company-backed conservative facades pretending to be "Institutes of Public Affairs".

When decisions are made about what to do about climate change they are not made by scientists. Get that into your head right now. Scientists are traditionally very poor at managing society and social/ploitical risk. Do you expect the prime minister for example to bandy words over the acidity of the ocean with every science crackpot that comes along (can you imagine it: "its because to the methane clathrates affecting the coefficients of the cubic spline of the PH of the pink elephants, prime minister" .. "Oh, OK I'll hold off on carbon trading for a decade then"). No, this is a decision that is made ultimately by non-scientists and will be made according to the scientific consensus of climate scientists *and* other advisers. If you manage to significantly change the consensus of recognised climate experts, then I'll be interested. So far there is no sign that this is likely to happen, and that in itself says much. This is definitely not the forum for it - this is the forum for professional sceptics to grandstand to get popular support it seems. Go to a real science forum and argue your case there.

"Your attack on his associations is akin to the Maoists in the Cultural Revolution"

And that isn't ad hominem? So I'm beating people to death, torturing people, censoring others, and destroying historical sites and cultures am I? Get some perspective, and get life. Trivialising such human rights violations is extremely disrespectful of the cultures and individuals that have suffered in those regimes. There is a widely held belief that once an debating opponent resorts to such hyperbole (particularly the Nazi one - look up Godwin's Law - but Maoist counts too) they are essentially admitting defeat. A silly amateurish mistake indeed from an alleged PhD holder.

Your writing style is strangely familiar, but wasn't it Nazis last time? Are you going to start sock puppetting too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_sock_puppet).
posted by: Sam Stainsby 29-Apr-08 00:35:09
I also suspect a fair amount Astroturfing is going on here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) not to mention the "Chewbacca Defense" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defence).

THis makes good reading:
http://environmentdebate.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/doctor-no-dr-fran-manns/
So would that be Francis Manns of "Mann Oil Resources", who also worked for "Northgate Exploration Limited".
posted by: Mr Gumby 29-Apr-08 05:57:18
What an illuminating series of comments this has been. It looks like many I have seen on climate change – a main article followed by a series of comments, primarily from the deniers, muddying the waters in the name of open debate, and in the end we have commentary on the commentary rather than the issue.

Though come to think of it, this is actually fair enough in this case as Dr Carter’s piece is indeed an Opinion piece and not a scientific one (i.e. whether you agree with them or not, statements such as “The press, most of whom have firmly identified with the alarmist cause, continues to appease the Green gods by faithfully running IPCC’s now unrealistic scientific propaganda, thereby stoking public alarm” and “Play Station 4 he we come” are surely Carter’s opinion and not Carter’s science).

So I disagree with Lee Rogers “he’s a scientist and cannot be questioned” argument. While he may disagree with Carter, I don’t see Stainsby rubbishing Carter’s scientific credentials in paleoclimatology, just noting an affiliation to a staunchly denialist organisation (though Carter does not give the same due to the numerous scientists who believe in anthropogenic contributions to climate change essentially charging them as being unethical, liars and, worst of all its seems party to the “UN’s hysterical global warming scare” as I read his piece). This seems fair enough when commenting on Carter’s opinion.

Manns supports Rogers on the irrelevance of affiliation. But then claims that “the left is a parasite”. So affiliation to a right wing think tanks is irrelevant, but imagined alignment to the left makes you a parasite?

Affiliation is also irrelevant for Raven and Patrick (well unless you are affiliated to the UN or IPCC or a Government in general) but it also appears that science is also irrelevant to them. Raven goes as far as to suggest that “you have the bias within the entire scientific establishment” because it “depends on government grants” (yet is happy to cite sources such as Lucia Liljegren who – if Google is to be believed - works for the US Department of Energy funded Battelle NW Laboratory, and Dr Carter himself who works for a public university – most are in Australia – who has I’d imagine had one or two “government grants” in his time) and says that the “UN (is a) body that has a vested interest in preserving itself and ensuring that the power of the UN expands”.

And Patrick says in response to a statement about lack of Government support for climate change: “nonsense. Hansen and GISS has been at it since the 1980s, govt funded the whole time”. Apart from pointing out that there is more than one Government in the world (not just the US one), I just cannot get from what is being said here to the conspiracy of “Govt … funding pro-AGW science consistently”.

Anyway, bye for now (with my apologies Stainsby for my use of a pseudonym!)
posted by: Mat 28-Apr-09 00:03:19
When I was in grade school in the early 1970's, we were taught that the cooling in the atmosphere was going to cause excess pollution and a new ice age. This propaganda was from the same ideological lineage of which the IPCC is a part of. Addressing climate change is vainly illogical because the climate is constantly changing. The hysteria emanates from pantheism; the belief in earth worship.
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