| A cool look at global warming scepticism |
| Friday, 16 May 2008 | |
|
By Dr Geoff Davies
Professor Don Aitkin’s sceptical view of global warming, presented to the Planning Institute of Australia on April 2nd, has been widely publicised. He claims that the current level of warming is not historically unprecedented, that the link between warming and greenhouse gas emissions is weak, and that we should not do anything to restrict emissions until it is “absolutely plain” that there is no alternative. He says the global warming issue is a distraction from the water and peak oil crises facing Australia. Having failed to understand why climate scientists are advocating urgent action (“stridently”, he claims), Professor Aitkin proceeds to play the people instead of the ball by questioning their motives, claiming, among other things, that having set up the IPCC the scientists have to keep justifying it by claiming there is warming. Professor Aitkin poses several questions, the three most immediate being whether the Earth is warming, whether its present warming is unprecedented, and whether our burning of fossil fuels is causing the present warming. However there are other equally important questions lurking behind this debate which usually get little or no attention. These are:
Professor Aitkin has touched on these questions, but he does not seem to see them as central. His main concern is clearly that effective action will be expensive and will therefore distract us from other crises. Professor Aitkin wants a more open debate. It already exists, if he would look in the right places, but here I will engage him directly. I will first discuss his claims, then turn to my three additional questions, and finally close with my own brief assessment of our situation. I am responding to the text of Professor Aitkin’s speech, to his two “Ockham’s Razor” broadcasts on the ABC, and to some direct correspondence we have had. Professor Aitkin makes much of the uncertainty of climate observations. There are certainly many uncertainties and complications, and a great deal of effort is devoted to overcoming or minimising the limitations of the observations. However Professor Aitkin claims scientists don’t discuss them, particularly singling out the IPCC. In this he misunderstands or misconstrues the role of the IPCC reports: they are entitled “Assessment” reports. They are not just the science; they are an assessment of the science, using a process I will explain more fully later. Evidently he denies IPCC the role (I would say the responsibility) of assessing the state of the evidence. Nor does he note its consensus procedure and the political vetting of its final texts, both of which tend strongly to make its assessments conservative. Professor Aitkin presents himself, on the other hand, as a paragon of disinterested enquiry. However he inevitably makes his own selections and judgements of the evidence. For example he queries the claim that the present warming is unprecedented and cites one study arguing the Medieval Warm Period in Europe was warmer than at present. However a number of temperature proxies show the temperature to have been 0.0-0.3 degrees cooler than the mid-twentieth century (and thus 0.6-0.9 degrees cooler than now – you can see the graph on Wikipedia). Also, according to the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration there is no clear evidence that the warm period extended outside Europe. Evidently Professor Aitkin has not taken his own advice on the difficulties of estimating global averages. Nevertheless he stated quite firmly in his broadcast that the present warming is no greater than that of the Medieval Warm Period. More egregiously, Professor Aitkin makes no significant mention of dramatic changes in the Arctic, nor of pervasive and rapid retreats of mountain glaciers. These are noted (p. 6) only as “the evident melting of sea ice and the retreat of some glaciers”. In this statement he misrepresents the observations of mountain glaciers, which are indisputable, and glosses over perhaps the most dramatic and disturbing symptom of warming, to which I will return. Professor Aitkin claims there is no reasonable evidence that greenhouse gas emissions are the cause of the present warming (though he acknowledges well-established basic physics). One of his arguments is that there is “no dramatically linear relationship” between the two during the twentieth century. But of course there are natural short-term fluctuations in temperature (which sceptics like to emphasise) but not in the rise of carbon dioxide, so we don’t expect any simple linear relationship, particularly in the short term. This is a superficial and uncompelling argument. Another argument, frequently raised by sceptics, is that during the ice ages rises in temperature proceeded carbon dioxide rises. Professor Aitkin leaves the implication dangling that we don’t understand why, and that this also shows that carbon dioxide levels do not determine temperature. In fact this topic is well (if not widely) understood. The ice-age fluctuations were triggered by fluctuations in the amount of heat received from the sun (due to slow gyrations of Earth in its orbit around the sun), but the temperature fluctuations would have been minor were they not strongly amplified by the carbon dioxide released as temperature rose. The amplification also explains the strongly asymmetric temperature fluctuations (slow cooling, rapid warming). The conclusion is that carbon dioxide was the dominant factor, though not the trigger. The ice age observations thus strongly support the hypothesis that a rise in carbon dioxide levels causes a rise in temperature. Our present situation is different from the ice age situations. Solar heating has not changed significantly, but carbon dioxide levels have gone up a lot, higher than they’ve been for at least three million years. Our understanding of the ice age fluctuations gives us strong reason to expect that temperatures will increase, with a time lag of a few decades. The fact that the mean temperature has increased by at least 0.6 degrees Celsius over the past few decades (a conclusion Professor Aitkin does not dispute) is then reason for serious concern. There is additional, longer-term geological evidence in which carbon dioxide levels correlate well with surface temperature. The implied temperature variation is, if anything, greater than computer climate models suggest. Thus, contrary to Professor Aitkin’s claim, there is independent and strong evidence that greenhouse gases cause warming. Climate models, for all their imperfections, confirm this, which is one reason to take them seriously, if cautiously. Professor Aitkin asserts that “there is simply no evidence” that polar ice will melt and that sea levels will rise. The only citation he makes is to a claim that recent evidence may show a slight cooling of the oceans over the past five years. Even if substantiated, that would be no basis for his grand assertion. He fails to mention clear evidence of the acceleration of both melting and ice movement in Greenland. There is also clear geological evidence for polar melting and sea level rise accompanying higher temperatures. Three million years ago, when the Earth was 2-3 degrees hotter, sea level was 15-35 meters higher. This is roughly consistent with evidence from the last glacial maximum and from a warm period 40 million years ago that around 20 meters of sea level change occurs for each degree of temperature change. We are likely to experience at least 2 degrees of warming. The complete melting of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets would contribute about 7 meters each to sea level, so evidently even more ice was lost three million years ago under not dissimilar conditions. Professor Aitkin’s discussion of potential sea level rise is quite deficient. He notes that the IPCC forecasts a sea level rise of around 30 cm this century, but says this is no reason for concern because, for example, the low-lying Tuvalu islands already experience sea level fluctuations because of El Nino. But of course the natural fluctuations would be added to the global rise. Damage occurs during peaks in the natural fluctuations, such as king tides and storm surges, as New Orleans found out. This is a superficial and irresponsible dismissal of concern for the livelihoods, communities and lives of millions of people. Professor Aitkin queries computer climate models at some length. They are indeed still significantly limited, and their results must be treated with care. However our conclusions about global warming do not rest solely on computer models, as the proceeding discussion will have made clear. Professor Aitkin reveals his superficial understanding by claiming that if they can’t make a reliable 24-hour forecast then one shouldn’t believe long-term climate forecasts. He evidently lacks the elementary understanding that weather causes erratic fluctuations around a relatively slowly changing mean, and that climate is about the long-term means. He also suggests their climate forecasts would be more believable if they would forecast the climate for 2009. However climate scientists repeatedly emphasise that one can’t reach conclusions about global warming from a single year’s record, nor even from trends over a few years, one has to look at longer-term trends. Having failed to appreciate some of the key arguments supporting the global warming hypothesis, Professor Aitkin turns his attention to explaining to himself why climate scientists persist in making urgent pleas to curb greenhouse gas emissions. He suggests they are protecting their turf, reputations and pet idea, and revelling in the extra funding and influence they are receiving. He describes the more activist scientists, and environmentalists in general, as holding a “quasi-religious” view. He says The Greens, “greens” and environmentalists welcome and propagate the global warming view because it fits their own perceptions (implying that those people have no rational basis for their views). He says even democratic governments like to have issues to scare people with. (Well yes, we’ve certainly seen the terrorism threat used that way, but I struggle to think of a government that has yet turned to global warming to scare its citizens, as all of them have had to be dragged kicking and screaming to acknowledge the problem.) He says people have an appetite for horror stories, and the media love to play to that (no argument there, but the media don’t care which story they peddle). There are quite a few things one could say about these characterisations, only a couple of which will be noted here. Sceptics love to claim climate scientists are only in it for the research funding, ego tripping, alleged influence and so on, but they rarely mention the trillions of dollars and dominating global influence that fossil fuel industries have at stake, and that ExxonMobil in particular actively protects. Professor Aitkin laments that he has been called a “denialist” by others, yet he labels climate scientists as quasi-religious and with the several other descriptions just mentioned. In our correspondence he said “scientists” have said apocalyptic things before and been wrong, so why are they right now? I think Jared Diamond’s assessment, in his book Collapse, is more valid and pertinent. Diamond recounts the stories of civilisations that failed to heed danger signals, and collapsed. He recounts the stories of others that saw trouble coming, acted appropriately and in time, and avoided collapse. Scientists are human, and scientific debates fall short of the ideal. There is turf protection and self-promotion, and rancour is not uncommon. As an advocate of a minority view in my own field for twenty years, a view ultimately vindicated, I am personally acquainted with these imperfections. The IPCC process is specifically intended to step back from the front-line disputes to see what scientists can agree on. This is the part of the IPCC process that seems to have completely escaped Professor Aitkin’s understanding. Even so, not everybody ends up satisfied with its assessments. Many, me included, feel it is too conservative. However in reaching for the conspiracy theory favoured by sceptics and denialists, to make up for his own deficient understanding, Professor Aitkin besmirches a great many excellent and conscientious scientists. Professor Aitkin makes belated acknowledgement in his speech of the precautionary principle, which is basically that we would be wise take some preventative action as insurance against potential catastrophe. His view seems to be, as best I can understand it, that there may be many possible reasons for climate change, so we’d be foolish to assume we’ve identified the real culprit and should therefore just accept and adapt to whatever comes to pass. When I reminded him in correspondence that to act effectively to avert global warming we know we must act before there is certainty, because of the time lags in the climate system, he said that my argument for the insurance policy view would only apply if the climate scientists are certainly correct. I don’t pretend to understand the logic of these statements. Professor Aitkin identifies himself as a historian and political scientist. At best, he can be seen to have made the classic mistakes of a neophyte – failing to identify key evidence, key arguments and reliable voices among the confusion of a large, active and complex field, and resorting to a conspiracy theory to explain what otherwise he could not understand. He acknowledges two prominent sceptics as guides in an unfamiliar field, which perhaps was not the best way to undertake the comprehensive and disinterested investigation he says he aspired to. His patronising and sweeping characterisation of environmentalists as quasi-religious, and his dismissal of the idea that we could deal with several problems simultaneously as Utopian (see below), reveal limitations of his own world view. Such prejudices have clearly conditioned the conclusions he was able to reach. Professor Aitkin considers global warming to be a distraction from more immediate crises, such as water and peak oil. When I put to him that sensible action would mitigate all three crises, and others besides, he brushed me off in his patronising style as “Utopian”. This brings us to my three questions. It is implicit in Professor Aitkin’s arguments that his answers would be (a) it would be difficult and costly to change, (b) there are no other benefits to changing, in fact it would be harder to deal with other crises, and (c) there are no other compelling reasons to change. This is clearly a widespread set of views among sceptics, vested interests and most government agents. There is, on the other hand, widespread, growing and well-justified concern that our Western consumer lifestyle already exceeds the ability of the Earth to sustain it. Among the symptoms of this are increasing shortages of fresh water, sick river systems, degradation and loss of soil, rapidly declining forests and their rich biodiversity, sick and dead coral reefs and their rich biodiversity, rapidly declining fisheries, and chemical pollutants from pole to pole, concentrating up food chains, decimating many creatures and showing up in a range of human symptoms. It is also widely believed that the rate of discovery of oil will now decline, just as demand is rising even more rapidly. All of this would seem to say clearly we should wean ourselves off oil and we should reduce our materialist obsession with owning ever more stuff. It is becoming widely recognised that buying things does not lead to life satisfaction, it leads to ever more frenetic living, and that we need to shift to a thriftier but more satisfying life style. Professor Aitkin says as much himself, though for him it seems to be more a matter of virtue than necessity. It is, however a necessity, because if we don’t reduce our demands on the Earth we will suffer famines, plagues and surely wars as Earth’s soils and ecosystems progressively degrade and disintegrate into chaos. It is not so widely appreciated how relatively easy it is to reduce our wasteful use of energy and other resources. Energy use and greenhouse emissions have been reduce by two thirds or more by major corporations and many individuals, and they have saved money as a result. As our energy needs decline, renewable resources become more sufficient and the old and dirty sources become unnecessary. It is not true that renewable energy would be seriously unreliable, despite the ignorant and self-interested claims of big-energy advocates. Recycling of materials is increasing rapidly, and Germany requires ninety percent of car components to be returned to manufacturers for recycling. There is little reason why our ingenuity will not lead us to recycle almost all materials indefinitely. This path will indeed mitigate the many crises now confronting us. In fact it is the only path that will allow our grandchildren’s grandchildren to inherit a rich and fulfilling world. Finally I will offer a brief alternative assessment of the present situation regarding global warming. There are a number of signs that global warming is proceeding much more rapidly than anticipated, and human emissions are also increasing faster than expected. In the northern summer of 2007 the area of Arctic sea ice fell about 40 percent below the mean for the summers of 1979-1990. It’s volume was down by about 80 percent. Although a slow decline had been in progress, the decline in 2005 and then the larger decline in 2007 represented a dramatic acceleration of the trend. The level reached was not anticipated to occur, either by ice experts or by IPCC modelling, until around 2040. If continued, the new trend would result in an ice-free summer Arctic within 2-5 years; this was not anticipated until around the end of the century. Ice has reformed over the past winter, but it is thin “seasonal ice” that melts much faster than “old ice”, which is typically 5 years old or more. When I mentioned evidence for recent acceleration of warming in our correspondence, Professor Aitkin asked what evidence? “You can't just mean that the IPCC's view of Arctic ice melting may have been understated. Surely the change since 1998 can't be described as ‘rapid acceleration’!” This is further evidence of Professor Aitkin’s egregious ignorance of crucial observations, or their significance. Dramatic warming of the Arctic has been evident for some time. The plight of polar bears has received publicity, but the lives of indigenous people have also been disrupted and there have been dramatic changes in marine life. While sceptics and denialists quibble about whether “global” temperature changes can be properly measured, the changes to the Arctic are dramatic and indisputable. The shrinking of the Arctic sea ice is disturbing not only because it is a dramatic change in the condition of the Earth, but because the exposed sea absorbs much more of the sun’s heat than does the ice that used to cover it. Thus warming of the Arctic sea, and of the whole Arctic, will inevitably be accelerated. This is one of several effects that have the potential to become mutually reinforcing. Permafrost is already melting around the Arctic. The permafrost and cold northern soils contain large stores of carbon and methane (which is a greenhouse gas at least twenty times more potent than carbon dioxide). Those stores are possibly larger than all stores of fossil fuels, including coal. As permafrost melts and soils warm those stores are released. They further accelerate the warming, potentially disastrously. Melting of the Greenland ice sheet is accelerating. Glaciers are also accelerating, and the occurrence of “icequakes”, indicating ice fracturing and movement, is increasing. Surface meltwater has been plunging through fissures to the base of the ice sheet, kilometres below, where it floats the ice and lubricates its motion. These phenomena are not well understood, but have the clear potential to lead to much more rapid breakup of the Greenland ice sheet than was previously thought possible. That would raise sea level by about seven meters. The situation in Antarctica is less clear overall, but several floating ice shelves have disintegrated in recent years, and glaciers have accelerated, so there is ample reason for concern. The fear is that as sea-ice melting, permafrost melting and other phenomena progress they mutually reinforce each other. They could become a series of dominos, each tipping the next in an unstoppable sequence. The fear is that the Arctic sea ice is the first big domino, and that the fall of the dominos could take us into major and irreversible global warming. The potential for these dynamic interactions is widely recognised in the profession, but Professor Aitkin’s discussion gives no indication of any awareness of them, which is further evidence of the deficiency of his education in global warming. If a runaway shift into a substantially warmer climate occurred, the survival of the present global economic system would have to be considered uncertain at best. This is why increasing numbers of climate scientists have been calling for urgent action, much sooner than the current international talks are considering. Given that we need to act for other reasons, that reducing our material wastefulness will not be very expensive, and there will be spin-off benefits, we shouldn’t wait for international agreements. If you are with a group in a row boat on a river and you notice the current getting faster, then you hear what sounds like a waterfall, do you say “I won’t row until all of you row”? Dr Geoff Davies is a Senior Fellow in geophysicis at the Australian National University and the author of Economia: New Economic Systems to Empower People and Support the Living World (ABC Books, 2004). His commentaries have appeared in New Matilda, Australasian Science and The Canberra Times. He is not a climate scientist himself, and thus has no professional stake in the debate. This opinion is a response to Professor Don Aitkin's comments to the Planning Institute of Australia in Canberra on April 2 2008. Editor's Note: For permission to reproduce this article please contact This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it . Comments
(30)
written by
Clifford J. Wirth , May 15, 2008
Global warming is a real threat to humanity. Peak Oil is a catastrophe which begins soon, as this free report explains: http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html
written by
monsoonevans , May 16, 2008
This piece of literature is completely hypothetical. Not a single piece of evidence is presented to prove your 'hypothesis'. From Milutin Milankovitch's research it is clear that the complete oposite is true in terms of your scientific assesment that cold periods come slowly and warm periods are rapid rises. Its the other way around. The point of the matter is that there is more 'science' to support the skeptics case than there is for AGW crowd. The AGW is full of 'what ifs' and 'it only makes sense that...'. Dont confuse the issue. Certainly man has an effect on the climate. Everytime we breath we put CO2 into the atmosphere. However, the significance of what humans can do to is so small that it is laughable. We have pumped soo much C02 into the atmosphere while at the same time having the global temps barely move over the last 100 years. Climate models are rediculous in that they are only as good as the information that they are inputted with.
written by
Mick , May 16, 2008
More importantly the temperatures were much higher during the Holocene Maximum during the bronze age.
And yes, the polar bears survived this period!!!!
written by
Mick , May 16, 2008
And temperature and C02 do correlate, its just that the record indicates the temperature causes C02 to rise:P
The whole global warming fuss was caused when they first read the ice cores they could no distinguish this time order. Except when they finally found out the IPCC had already proclaimed Sacred Consensus so they just pretended it never happened...
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 16, 2008
It is true that we cannot be certain about global warming. It is also true that climatologists always want more data although already dealing with mountains of data. And here, pointing out one or another inconsistency can be helpful, but cannot be called denial.
And we are faced with denial phenomenon in its extreme. Don Aitkin is just an example. This deserves our scrutiny and question: why has denial spread like a wildfire? General public does not have our training or peer review mechanism. Once a half-truth starts to circulate it has its own momentum. Spiced up with a conspiracy theory it will spread like wildfire. Attempts to reason with such rumours will only “identify us as conspirators”. Like with flu, all we can do is to let rumours run its course. However, we must deal with rumour-starters in our ranks. And a rumour can be started in a number of ways. Careless oversimplification is the mildest case. Deliberate distortions are much more serious and must be dealt with. This particular case seems to be orchestrated effort by Online Opinion. Careful look at who is who may provide insights about hidden agendas. Their revelation may stop further feeds to rumours. All this also underlines our responsibility in going public and a need for a better eloquence. We are often not very good in presenting our cases.
written by
Mr Gumby , May 16, 2008
Monsoonevans cannot spell the word "ridiculous". Therefore I reject everything he says as either a fabrication, a self interested plot, or uterly unjustifiable.
(Hey its fun and oh so easy to use a "spoiling denialist" approach to argument - no need to think at all!)
written by
Geoff Davies , May 16, 2008
Monsoonevans, have a look at the temperature, CO2 and methane curves at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles (about the seventh image - if you click on it you will see an enlargement).
The axis is age (time before the present), not time (since the past). What I see is gradual cooling and sudden warming.
written by
Harbinger , May 17, 2008
There is no "plight of the Polar Bears", they are thriving because their main prey, seals are in abundance. They have done very well out of the cycle of warmer springs, now coming to an end. The recent ice losses were not becaus eof melting but because of wind changes which drove ice out of the Arctic. The recent ice extent in the Bering sea is unprecented in recent history.
Some 3-4000years ago Inuit traversed the Arctic from Northern Alaska to Greenland, because the Arctic was almost ice free. Western Greenland had an agricultural economy growing Barley and other crops in the Mediaeval Warm Period.
written by
Wayne Delbeke , May 17, 2008
I find any reference to NASA science these days to be suspect. James Hansen seems to have his fingers in a lot of the data. A while back it seems that the "Four" premiere agencies with satellite monitoring concurred that the earth had "cooled" over the last year. Then Mr. Hansen's crew applied a "mathematical" adjustment to their data and suddenly it got warmer so now only three out of four agencies report cooling.
Interestingly it seems that NASA has a history of "adjusting" raw data and it always seems to adjust towards Mr. Hansen's theories. I am not a climate scientist, but I am and engineer so I have a reasonable understanding of the physical world. After many years of following Mr. Hansen, after reading the IPCC report and the Summary report, I have become a solid skeptic on AGW. Yes the earth is warming, yes there is undoubtedly a human contribution ( insects also contribute), but I am aghast at the arrogance of the men that think we can control our climate. We can control pollution, we can control overfishing, we can control cutting down of the rain forests, we can control malaria ... yet we don't, instead we listen to fools telling us to spend billions on things we most likely can't control I am old enough to remember the heat waves of the late 40's and early 50's, the ice age scare of the 70's, and I believe that Mr. Gore and Mr. Hansen will be shown one day to be embarassingly hypocrytical ans wrong. But I could be wrong too. And the polar bears will probably outlast mankind. Funny how everyone cherry picks information - on both (all) sides of the debate. I can't believe how so many people ignore basic physics and chemistry in their arguments and don't even read the IPCC science. Melting ice caps do NOT increase the ocean levels. Thermal expansion is the cause according to the IPCC. Carbon dioxide is released from warming oceans in huge quantities. And no one understands the mixing issue and absorption/release mechanisms - some say the ocean surface is warming and releasing CO2. But the deep ocean is cooling according to the bobbing buoys. And the whole greenhouse effect and positive feed back is not based on CO2 but on increasing water vapour content. There are a whole lot of basic physics and chemistry that tells us that plus experiments. We all know you can only dissolve so much sugar in a glass of water. After you add so much, adding more does nothing. Same thing for CO2 in the atmosphere. You can look it up. To get the effect the IPCC is claiming, you have to make assumptions about a whole lot of things, and I am not aware of it actually being demonstrable outside a test tube. It is all theory. I used to do a lot of curve fitting for making projections of revenue in my engineering business. You can design all sorts of things by adding the right formulae together. But it doesn't ever mean you will be right, because all it is is a model with certain confidence levels. Reality is something else. And from what I see, it seems the world has been captured by a model. The US just passed its Polar Bear endangered species thing on the basis of a "MODEL" that says the Polar Bear will be at risk because of global warming ... inspite of the fact that their numbers have gone from 4,000 to 25,000 in the last 50 years and continues to grow. People have been playing too many computer games. It seems that "models" have gotten more important than reality. A sad commentary on our future. And on cherry picking, I notice this article uses the low ice of the summer of 2007 but does not mention the HUGE ice build up by March of 2008 which was one of the highest since satellite monitoring started. The cherry picking by all parties to this discussion is disturbing. Wayne Delbeke
written by
Norm G. Smith , May 17, 2008
Climate Change is perfectly natural and normal. We are spending billions and billions chasing a ghost.
FACT: We are currently enjoying the end of a warm interval (interglaciation) between ice ages. Our interglaciation is called the Holocene. The last interglacial (before the last ice age) was called the Eemian. The Eemian Interglacial was WAAY HOTTER THAN TODAY AND CO2 WAS SKYROCKETING AS WELL!!! Modern Man was not here yet during the Eemian but if we were some Al Gore type would have been blowing hot air and blaming "human activity." Thank God the Earth naturally warmed up from the last ice age, because my country - Canada - was covered by ice several kilometers thick about 12,000 years ago. These warm interglacials typically end after about 12,000 years so statisticly the next ice age is getting close. We should all be concerned about pollution and toxic waste, but CO2 is not pollution. CO2 IS NATURAL AND GOOD: We all produce CO2 every time we exhale. Trees take in CO2 and produce oxygen from it. If we somehow removed all the CO2 from the atmosphere all plants would die the same day, and human extinction would follow. The simplistic notion that “CO2 causes global warming and controls climate” is equivalent to saying “hot dog sales cause recessions and control the economy “. It’s a childish oversimplification of an extremely complex topic.
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 17, 2008
Despite obvious lack of consensus re global warming, I guess that there is a consensus that we cannot continue as usual with:
1. Polluting (not only CO2). 2. Deforestation. 3. Land degradation. 4. Energy waste. 5. Fresh water waste. 6. Food waste. 7. All other resources waste. Growing population will increase pressures to the breaking point and our civilisation must change to avoid a collapse. Global warming is just one piece of the global puzzle. Even if global warming does not occur, the above wastes will backfire. Even if the global warming is a myth (which it is not), it would be irresponsible to advocate business as usual. Carbon dioxide is good, but not too much of it. This cannot be said, however, for many other pollutants. Sustainable forestry is also good, but we have seen too much of unsustainable deforestation. I can elaborate on this further, but the point is clear.
written by
Norm G. Smith , May 17, 2008
May I add that CO2 is only 0.038% of the atmosphere and only 5% of that is man made(anthropogenic).
Natural water vapour causes 75% to 95% of the greenhouse effect, depending on where you get your information.
written by
Norm G. Smith , May 18, 2008
Hi Damir,
"The balance" is an illusion that falsely suggests temperature is always suposed to be constant. But if you look at any graph(image from any source, such as http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...ations.png) of Holocene Temperature (the last 12,000 years)you will see that temperature is NEVER stable. The graphs all show a roller coaster of warming, cooling, warming, cooling, etc, etc. The graphs show clearly that what is happening with todays temps is in no way unprecedented. If you want a real eye opener look at the Vostok Ice Core graphs - they go back about 450,000 years. Even more startling is the 5 million year climate history based on ocean sediment cores. You can find them all using you search engine's image search. They all have one thing in common - NO HORIZONTAL LINES("balance") - only ups and downs. Best wishes
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 18, 2008
Hi Norm,
Thank you. I must say, however, that such debates are used and abused by others more interested in manipulating public than in science. Online Opinion is a prime example. We should try to reach a consensus and judging by comments so far we can. At this point, anthropogenic or not, is irrelevant. Kind regards,
written by
Arnold , May 18, 2008
WOW! Is there any topic at all that people can agree upon? Also,please inform me if it is possible for the percentage of OXGEN a Sea Level to decrease significantly? If,how would this affect the lives of any or all of us?
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 18, 2008
Dear Arnold,
It’s like in marriage. People sometimes have to agree, at least tentatively, on something to move forward. We can always return to the topic. Stalemates rarely result in fresh thoughts. In this particular case, building a consensus is important, since it frees energies to tackle other important issues that can be only augmented by GW. I have outlined in “seven sins” comment what I consider to be important and related to the topic. Others may have different ides. As for your oxygen question, the increase of carbon dioxide levels will reduce oxygen levels. It is hard to say by how much since we do not have reliable estimates. There is, however, a worrying sign that (hypothetical) GW may reduce planet’s capacity to absorb atmospheric CO2 leading to further reduction of atmospheric oxygen levels. A fall of a couple of percentages would not affect us too seriously. (We already tolerate such a fall, occasionally, in some urban centres.) But it would affect seriously birds and mammals with faster metabolisms. Marine mammals could also be affected by shortening their under water periods. Such a change would significantly reduce our food production capacity. Kind regards,
written by
Norm G. Smith , May 20, 2008
There is no doubt that humans have done a great job of trashing out the planet. Out here in "pristine" western Canada the oceans are running out of fish, salmon runs are very low, the orcas are loaded with lead, mercury and PCB's. My wife and I always see a lot of trash floating when we ocean kayak(our hobby), and on remote islands all kinds of trash washed up on beaches. Even here in BC the reckless disregard for the environment is obvious.
I used to be a Green Party candidate, but I ended up breaking ranks with the greens over the global warming issue. I used to believe that CO2 caused global warming, and that temperature was supposed to be stable, but after a lot of research my opinion changed. I also HATE toll roads and that's another Green Party platform. Otherwise I still agree with 99% of the Green Party agenda. "Peace"
written by
Sams , May 20, 2008
Personally, I think that peak oil and climate change are just to harbingers of even worse issues. Our exponentially increasing carnage of the planet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...3_A.D.png is not going to end well.
written by
Gordon , May 21, 2008
Clive Hamilton has published an article on newmatilda.com regarding Aitkin's claims and fallibility.
http://www.newmatilda.com/2008/05/19/death-rattles-climate-change-skeptics
written by
Salamander , May 21, 2008
If we accept the reality of global warming, then in the past 110 years there has been a net .6 of a degree of warming.
There has been no warming for the past 10 years, and in 2007 there was a cooling of .6 of a degree, in respect of which I saw no headlines in the press. The article by Geoff Davies lost me when he referred to Wikipedia as an authority. It has no authority in this area, and has demonstrated abysmal dishonesty. It still shows Naomi Oreskes, who has been completely discredited as an authority on the non existent "consensus". Geoff also moved into the future of global warming, which we all know cannot be predicted, and appeals to the discredited IPCC as an authority. For any one who takes any interest in the IPCC it is obvious that they are dishonest, and not to be relied upon. At least he did not quote Al Gore. But his article is of no substance, and he has no basis to talk down to Don Aitkin, who has shown an authoritative grasp of the subject.
written by
monsoonevans , May 22, 2008
Mr. Gumby,
One of the great benefits of technology that has been allowed to advance in our world, is spell check. Unfortunately, when I'm typing away on my blackberry while on the train, I loose that function/crutch. If the problem was that simple as far as AGW goes. Not sure if you heard this yet, but over 31,000 scientists in the U.S. signed a petition that refutes essentially everything the IPCC has claimed. According to these accredited individuals, AGW is a fallacy. To the author of this Op Ed piece, to my knowledge there are more scientists that have signed off on this be a hoax than there are that says its not (2,500-IPCC). It would appear to me that on numbers alone, the AGW alarmists are in the minority. No? Geoff Davies-thanks for the correction on Milankovitch. Image was backwards on the blackberry. Point of Milankovitch is still the same, climate change is a natural occurance that is almost certainly tied to natural events. The problem with the science is that, at best, its tide to only 30 years of meaningful data. Everything beyond that is suspect. We have a better indication of what the earth was like over the last million years than we do over the last 1000 years. When one looks at the financial market and is making a decision on what stocks to buy, does it make sense to look at how Google has performed over the last 6 months, or does it make more sense to look at where large cap equities are over the last 6 years. Sure, Googles earnings and p/e ratio is important if your a day traider, but most people want to know what their nest egg is going to look like 30 years down the road. Therefore you would want to understand how financial markets work from a structural perspective. What google did this year has very little bearing on the overall market over the long-term. Whats all that mumbo-jumbo mean? The earth is a very complex system that is controlled by forces much greater than man-made CO2. The IPCC is a farce. Without 'AGW', they dont exist. Self preservation requires they continue on. Only those scientists that truly understand climate have any idea, and from what I have seen, there are more certified that believe its a hoax.
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 22, 2008
I didn’t know that there are 31,000 climatologists in US. Surely, there must be other scientists presented in this figure and a sentiment should be factored in.
And this sentiment is probably not shared by European scientists, for example, and we could have opposite petitions. Unfortunately (or fortunately), they seem to be more interested in doing their jobs than in outpours of sentiments in forms of petitions. What strikes me in such debates is a formation of two camps accusing each other of dishonesty. Interestingly, very few deny that we are probably heading towards a global warming period. And yet the debate is perpetuated. I would say recklessly. This rather smells of politics than of science. If so, I would propose global elections. Or, maybe, we are still better off with UN. Carbon dioxide is only one of the pollutants that can contribute to otherwise natural GW. But GW is the real issue we must face together with growing list of problems it may cause.
written by
monsoonevans , May 23, 2008
According to World Net Daily:
"more than 31,000 scientists across the U.S. – including more than 9,000 Ph.D.s in fields such as atmospheric science, climatology, Earth science, environment and dozens of other specialties – have signed a petition rejecting "global warming," the assumption that the human production of greenhouse gases is damaging Earth's climate." The Ph.D.s are what is most alarming. The point of the petition was not for these trained professionals to stop doing there regular jobs to become activists for this cause. They feel that their entire profession is under attack and is being misrepresented by Non-scientists. As has been clearly stated for some time, the IPCC's purpose is not a 'scientific' exercise, but rather a 'policy forming resource'. There's actually a chart in the 2nd report that shows how the group is structured. Science is just one part of the initiative. Here's a question that has been bugging me for awhile; How can Working Group III develope a strategy to combat the AGW problem that is illustrated by Working Group I's assesment PRIOR to WGI releasing their report? Seems to me that WGIII is crafting a strategy based off assumptions from earlier reports. Kinda putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. The scientists that signed this petition are simply stating that the facts dont support the AGW hypothesis. The IPCC and the rest of the AGW proponents should be required to verify their hypothesis before they start trying to shape policy. Not the other way around. "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." --Albert Einstein
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 23, 2008
Dear Monsoonevans,
I’m still left to wander why we do not have such petitions in the rest of the world? Fact: US are the only major country that did not sign Kyoto protocol. Fact: USA is a great country where science flourishes. Fact: The most of the research in US is funded by big business. Can we exclude a conflict of interest? If we agree about natural GW, we cannot exclude possibility of CO2 and other anthropogenic pollutants aggravating the issue. If we are uncertain, then we must be cautious. This is one of the principles in our environmental policies such debates often do not demonstrate. Kind regards,
written by
macadamia_man , May 26, 2008
Exxon Again Cuts Funds For Climate Change Sceptics
----------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmmmm . . . see: Exxon Again Cuts Funds For Climate Change Sceptics at www.planetark.com/dailynewssto.../story.htm US: May 26, 2008 NEW YORK - Exxon Mobil Corp is pulling contributions to several groups that have downplayed the risks that greenhouse gas-emissions could lead to global warming, continuing a policy started in 2006 by Chief Executive Rex Tillerson. Exxon will not contribute to some nine groups in 2008 that it funded in 2007. It said in its corporate citizenship report that the groups' "position on climate change could divert attention from the important discussion on how the world will secure the energy required for economic growth in an environmentally responsible manner." The groups Exxon has stopped funding include the Capital Research Centre, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow, Frontiers of Freedom Institute, the George C. Marshall Institute, and the Institute for Energy Research, according to Exxon spokesman Gantt Walton. Exxon's tone on climate change has softened since Tillerson took the reins of the company at the beginning of 2006, replacing the often-combative Lee Raymond. Tillerson has said that nations should work toward a global policy to fight climate change and in 2006 the company stopped funding a handful of groups that were climate change sceptics. But environmental activists charged that Exxon continued to fund other groups working against policies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, with Greenpeace arguing that the company gave more than $2 million to climate change sceptics in 2006 alone. The company cut its spending again in 2007 on such groups, including the Heartland Institute, which hosted a conference in March with the theme, "Global warming is not a crisis." (Reporting by Michael Erman; Editing by Braden Reddall)
written by
Heresiarch , May 27, 2008
"Fact: US are the only major country that did not sign Kyoto protocol."
*cough* China *cough* *cough* India *cough*
written by
Damir Ibrisimovic , May 27, 2008
Correction accepted. Wording with “developed country” and “ratify” would be better.
However, argument is structurally sound and we should take some “imports” with a grain of salt. Clear fingerprints of big business can always be seen in underlaying “we cannot do anything about GW”. This content has been locked. You can no longer post any comment.
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